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Brontolo (Beha)

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Oliviero Beha
I have to tell the truth, I woudn't know how to start without this spontaneous applause that comes from the heart. So "Brontolo" today talks about prisons, talks about prisons, in the past we have dealt with big topics in the Friday episode, trying to analyze them them in various stages, for example the house or the car. This time we talk about prisons. 800 550 269 the toll free number to join the direct, the mail is always This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. . Greetings to Melania Rizzoli of the Committee for Social Affairs of the PDL, physician, remains a physician also as a Parliamentarian, has written a book that perhaps is now displayed on the wall. Prisoners recorded going around some prisons encounters and words from the Italian prisons. Inmates of a certain type isn't it? Let's say of a certain political level rather than mafia level. Sometimes things get mixed but this morning we'll keep them separate.
Melania Rizzoli
A glimpse of our days Italy
Oliviero Beha
I also greet Stefano Anastasia of the association Antigone. Would you sum it up, assuming that there is someone at eleven o'clock in the morning, in a Friday in June who does not know that what Antigone is, eh Anastasia?!
Stefano Anastasia
An association that for more than twenty years has operated a monitoring activity of the reality of our prisons, producing information reports; everything you need to know about prisons.
Oliviero Beha
And then Marco Beltrandi, radical deputy part as vice president of the Transport Committee and the Board of Supervisors on Rai. So I now, Beltrandi, I repeat you with more emphasis the title of the episode. The theme of the episode PRISONS because according to the vulgata, according to the common things when it comes to prisons people run away and turn off the TV, there may be the most horrible things on other channels but they say you talk about prisons and I don't watch you because it's bad news and it's removed to the point that the radicals often have insisted, very recently also for example in January with the dimissionary Director General Lorenza Lei and later in April, before the March amnesty, on April 25, insisted but in fact is it possible that the RAI which is a public service company do not talk about such a sensitive issue which places us amongst the protagonists of a sad record in Europe? to the point that i read to you, so from the AGCOM, I read from the Communications Agency The importance that the subject be treated in depth in programs which constitute the most appropriate site for the display of steps and that require adequate time for discussion versus the small amount of time that distinguishes the news and even more they do not say only in-depth programs, but those which for a reasonable duration and themes are more likely to contribute appropriately to the formation of a public awareness. My question is my little show, this rescue boat at eleven in the morning, is it a program with a reasonable depth or not? because I have the right to know, isn't it?
Marco Beltrandi
Without doubt worthy because that I know it is the first real debate on this topic for a long time now because as the authority ha said is not just the news on TV you must discuss it; why do you have to discuss it? because the situation in prisons as we know is absolutely collapsing and has become, they have become places where rights are denied and we are constantly tried and convicted as Italy by the European court for that and punished economically. And this matter of rights that are denied, the fact that the law is violated where it should be applied, is never discussed and above all there is no discussion ever about the solutions because the issue Prison can addressed and resolved with possible solutions. Well we say that we definitely need an amnesty, but attention an amnesty is needed because this way we bring back prisons to the rule of law. There are 26,000 prisoners steadily increasing more than the maximum capacity but also to solve the problem of lack of judicial reform that is, without a measure which reduces from nearly eleven million in civil and criminal trials pending it is now clear that any reform of the justice is impossible. This impacts everything, free people's lives who do not have the opportunity to assert their rights and also impacts economic growth because clearly...
Oliviero Beha
So the idea is that starting with a reform of the prison system, let's say starting from a focus on the tremendous overcrowding of prisons with the possibility of an immediate solution to this overcrowding there is a strong presumption that a reform of justice may be pushed because it can not go forward like this. I summed it up enough.
Marco Beltrandi
Evidently to ensure the rights and freedoms of all that today are not guaranteed.
Oliviero Beha
Then I also introduce Cira Antignano who is the protagonist, as a mother, against her own will of a real tragedy; she is the mother of a boy who died a little less then two years ago in the French prison of Grasse, we'll talk about it later. Next to her is Carlo Parlanti who is the protagonist himself of very serious facts, thankfully less dramatic since he is here to talk about it; is it right Parlanti?!  He was first in prison in Germany and then especially in the U.S. We'll talk about  it because Italians in prisons abroad is something that we try to touch in order to explain what is happening. Let us go back, however, to the highest authority in the country, the President of the Republic Giorgio Napolitano, who a year ago or less said the following things, let's hear: A reality that humiliates us in Europe and alarms us for the daily suffering that pushes to the urge to take one's live of thousands of human beings closed in overcrowded prisons, which is almost an understatement to define overcrowded, not to mention the extreme horror of the remaining judicial mental hospitals inconceivable in any country barely civil. Evident in general is the gulf between how prison life is today and the constitutional provisions on the punishment and rehabilitative rights and dignity of the person. Onorable Rizzoli, so nobody really listen to President Napolitano on these things?
Melania Rizzoli
Well, he has already reported it last year, I wrote this book because... it is a book/report on the state of our Italian prisons. We collaborate with the friends Radicals who have always followed this theme with Marco Pannella and fought for this issue. Marco Pannella has follewed for 40 years the issue of prisons which must be dealt with; Now the Minister, the new Minister of Justice Severino has defined as the first item on his agenda the problem of prisons, let's hope that we can do something but in the economic circumstances of this country we are not so optimistic; however, we continue to fight because the situation has became untenable. I remember as Onorable Beltrandi was saying oon top of as many as 26,000 prisoners in excess,  28,000 prisoners are awaiting trial.
Oliviero Beha
The numbers put the willies. Right now before I give the line for 3 minutes to the news, I ask the director to show some example, this 66,487 are the inmates calculated as of May 31st and in reality Italian prisons could contain much less. We'll talk with Anastasia immediately after the news.
TV News
Oliviero Beha
Brontolo again dedicated to prisons. So if you are currently watching, I don't know what you are having to eat for lunch, how is normally done in TV show, I wish for you that you never directly or indirectly have anything to do with this problem and if it happen the worst for you. Now you'll send anathemas and these things. No, the problem is that if you do not begin to talk about these things and to follow them is over. That is a Sisyphean labor. So I felt I heard Beltrandi and Rizzoli. Anastasia, while I ask the director to send me some recent data, that is, the graphics we have to talk about, they speak for themselves! Shall we interpret these data?! After the prison population we see the first graphic of the total prisoners, there is a slight discrepancy of less than about 200, obviously in this period that is it. Then there is the capacity of regulatory and crowding, let's measure the crowding so that everyone understands what it means to the 145.8% ?
Stefano Anastasia
That were there should be 100, there are 145. It means that there are three every two beds, which means that in some situations, in some prisons, particularly in the so-called case circondariali, where go those who are arrested, that is when there are significant arrests some hundreds of people come together and often sleeps on the floor on mats of luck. This is the situation...
Oliviero Beha
Then, since I am sure no one of three experts in the topic will lose the thread, I propose to do something special for television, to watch, to see something. We sent Rita Di Francesco to the jail of Montacuto in Ancona to see right in there, with our cameras of course. We had permission obviously, it's all authorized by the institution. But inside there nobody can hold any longer: its prisoners, the correction officers, even the Director. In short, it is a situation that bubbles, just a situation that boils. Let's see Rita Di Francesco.
Rita Di Francesco's Interview in Montacuto,Casa Circondariale, Ancona
Domanda
How many prisoners are currently here?
Risposta
We have a presence on average of 400 inmates.
Domanda
How many were expected?
Risposta
Originally it was planned 120.
Detenuto
We are many, so this creates conflicts. Overcrowding of prisons, not only here as in all prisons, we are too many in a cell.
Santa Lebbroni (direttore)
Here we have a tipical cell, because this structure consists of all cells similar.
This is a cell that is occupied by three prisoners.
Rita Di Francesco
A cell provided for a detainee?
Santa Lebbroni (direttore)
Provided for a detainee, originally yes.
Rita Di Francesco
How many meters are they?!
Santa Lebbroni ( direttore)
They are nine square meters [97 square feet - TN].
Rita Di Francesco
Plus a bathroom area.
Santa Lebbroni ( direttore)
The bathroom is included.
Rita Di francesco
In the nine square meters?
Santa Lebbroni ( direttore)
Yes.
Detenuto
There is little personal space, little manageability of personal moments to think, write a letter to a relative in some calm, responding to a letter also be able to read mail that arrives to you. These are little things but they make the difference here.
Rita Di Francesco
In Montacuto prison they have organized various courses including a bookbinding one. Following them really helps inmates to make the time pass more quickly but only 150 of them on 400 can access them again because of overcrowding.
Detenuto
You are a little out of the cell, you're with other people, socialize with people from other departments of the prison or at least think a little less, stay focused on something.
Domanda
What do you miss most?
Risposta
My daughter.
Embraciung my mother who I always treated badly, why I do not know. I have two grandchildren and do not even know them. Also family affects. In here the only thing is the weekly phone call for 10 minutes which fly anyway, but that's still something.
Domanda
What idea do you have of freedom? what is freedom?
Risposta
It'ss a very beautiful thing. People give it for granted instead it is the primary asset, at least I think. Who enters in here realizes it. I sometimes say that all Italians should spend a week in prison to understand how it works and how the prison is. If one was in here for a week he would see how people live in here and if it is right that some people endure what they must endure.
End Interview
Oliviero Beha
So Anastasia, these are common prisoners as you say other than the prisoners interviewed by Melania Rizzoli. But those are still prisons and we can draw an initial conclusion after images of this kind and I hope they touch because if we have become so insensitive to not even those images touch us... in short, because then the theories are threads are important but in fact they touch less. I say if someone is not touched from these images there is something wrong. So, tell me Anastasia.
Stefano Anastasia
Actually it's the pictures but they are also, I mean the words and the feelings of these detainees, that have and express these detainees. The mission of rehabilitation of the prison, even the things they say about what they suffer in their detention, the distance from family members affected by the fact of not being able to say some things they wanted to, could, or perhaps have said before when they were at liberty. Also these words, I say I find it also very significant in addition to objectively impressive images of structures in large degradation. Those cells, also that cell for one, even if it had been for one... I believe we've seen it.
Oliviero Beha
Antigone's data to June 30th 2011, therefore a year ago, they said among the prisons, said the most crowded is Lamezia Terme with 333%, I remember that percentage between what should be and what it is instead. Brescia 258%, Busto Arsizio 253%, Varese then 247%. Therefore these are all prisons with much higher percentages than the average... with more than twice as many inmates... the average of which is 145% we said.
Stefano Anastasia
Let's end so we can get to change of scenarios, to answers, no? Certain and so this is the situation we have, a situation now structural because we must also tell us that despite the brief effect of the pardon 5 years ago in 2006, 6 years ago, and we have a population that in fact has more than 20,000 inmates in excess for at least seven-eight years.
Oliviero Beha
Then you say that by far overcrowding is the question that contains everything?!
Stefano Anastasia
Certainly it is a big problem and is a symptom of failure of justice. Onorable Beltrandi on this is quite right because it is an index of how our criminal justice system is poorly calibrated with respect to the needs because then we see people...
Oliviero Beha
Let's see a minute, European data, then crowding in the European Union until 2010, the latest data available, in Bulgaria 155,6 always in terms of percentage there should be 100 and there are 155, Italy 153% but it is data surpassed from the last we just gave, Spain 136.3%, France118.1%, Germany is civilized 89%, no Germany and Latvia. If it's for that Latvia is the most civilized let's face it, everyone thinks highly of Germany, but look at the small Latvia.
I would like to talk quickly with Carlo Parlanti then we return to it. Parlanti you have been, I mentioned it earlier, let's tell the story briefly, you have been arrested a few years ago right? in Germany for what reason?
Carlo Parlanti
I was arrested in 2004.
Oliviero Beha
You were, I don't know if you still do it, but you were a manager, I think isn't it?!
Carlo parlanti
I was an IT manager.
Oliviero Beha
So in Dusseldorf, with what charges?
Carlo Parlanti
The charge was that my ex-partner from the U.S. accused me of kidnapping her, raping and beating her. I have been arrested in Germany, in Dusseldorf and I spent 11 months in the Dusseldorf prison.
Oliviero Beha
Then you were extradited to where?
Carlo Parlanti
I was then extradited to California and I've lived in all the different types of prisons in California.
Oliviero Beha
So on this, because later we get back to his history in the last part of the transmission like of course on the history of the lady that I first introduced. But differences in treatment, you have seen these images.
Carlo Parlanti
I'll give you just a few numbers so you understand what are the differences. To begin with, in California overcrowding is at 250%. In California there are 145,000 prisoners in state prisons. Just to remind you California has less than 40 million people so it is smaller than two thirds of Italy. Adding the county jails you get to 250,000 inmates. The prison where I was hosted for most of the time, for 5 years in the desert of the San Joaquin Valley, is called Avenal. It is a prison with 8,000 people. 8,000... Where I lived for those 5 years, we were in 400 in a warehouse, a single open area.
Oliviero Beha
Therefore seeing these pictures you must have thought what a luck.
Carlo Parlanti
When I see a picture of a bathroom with a door that closes I start laughing. I heard this morning's news about Lusi and the problems of invasion of privacy because one can see in his bathroom. In the prison where I was, if you had come to visit us, when you enter this large concrete warehouse you would have seen in front of you a huge room with 12 showers with naked men who were washing; then immediately on the left you would have seen a television area with benches and in front of it a room completely open with 5 toilets whit people urinating and defecating facing each other and facing the other prisoners who are watching television.
Oliviero Beha
Listen, how did you... an idiotic question... but how did you help yourself to survive? Because you had the opportunity to bargain, if I read your story well, and you never wanted to plea bargain because you always maintained your innocence.
Carlo Parlanti
No, because I was innocent and they offered me a plea bargain that was absurd, because I was offered to bargain for the sole crime of rape to 3 years at 50%. In practice I would have been sent home after a month. It was just a way for them to hush the affair and send me away without a chance for justice.
Oliviero Beha
And you instead staied in prison to avoid bargaining to keep defending your innocence. Thing that you are doing also now. How long did you stay in prison between Germany and the United States?
Carlo Parlanti
Between Germany and United States a total of seven years and a half.
Oliviero Beha
How long was the sentence?
Carlo Parlanti
9 years.
Oliviero Beha
That's okay, actually that's very bad, and also the reference to Lusi is actually up to date. Far be it from me any lincing temptation but three days of Lusi in there and the whole Italian politics come out. Okay anyway that's another detail. Back to us is better. So perhaps we have some other graphics for example types of inmates. I ask the director. Detainees at September 30, 2011, always given from Antigone, waiting for first judgment 14,639, and already is a fact that impresses, awaiting trial are 28,000 total. I think everyone here in the studio and I also hope those at home who are not watching the kitchen have shuddered hearing what Parlanti said of American prisons. But now we'll also recover that topic in Italian terms. So charged 28,564, convicted permanently 37,213. One of the hypothesis of Alfano Severino and Monti, in short, is the privatization of prisons. Since this is a road that the United States have embarked perhaps the testimony of Parlanti has some value... it isn't that we go as the saying goes from the frying pan into the fire with the privatization? I'll give the question to you Beltrandi.
Marco Beltrandi
I have no preconceived ideological theory about this but I say only that if nothing is done to interrupt this mechanism, what is going on now, with a drastic measure, immediate, with immediate effects we are already moving toward the scenario Parlanti described. Because then what should be said is that the number of these prisoners is increasing every month, that is, each month there are about 800-1,000.
Melania Rizzoli
1000 entries per month.
Marco Beltrandi
I apologize, then this is an ongoing disaster situation, a denial of rights at work that gets worse every month. And compared to this any measure, privatization, construction of new prisons and jails is not adequate. You know in advance that is not appropriate, and if we limit ourselves to this we go to the disaster really an it effects mostly free citizens not only prisoners and those who work in prisons.
Oliviero Beha
Then you distinguish between an operation, so to speak, immediate and then go after prison policies that may affect the justice reform and the speech that we did, that is, you say the two things because if there aren't both speeds the second speed is not enough. Because it is just like Achilles and the tortoise.
Marco Beltrandi
Absolutely.
Melania Rizzoli
I wanted to add that in this time of severe economic crisis the prison population increases for all the reasons precisely tied to the economy while funding for prisons decreases. I just wanted to use the example that today an Italian prisoner coast for his three meals daily 3.8 euros per day while the municipality of Rome, and I wrote it, spends 4.5 per day for each guest of his kennels.
Oliviero Beha
Uh beh, must we necessarily make war between prisoners and dogs?!
Melania Rizzoli
No, but I say that funding is reduced and the prison population is increases and on top because of overcrowding also the socialization areas in which the prisoner should be recovered, re-educate are used for housing.
Oliviero Beha
Then on the assumption, because it is a hypothesis, Beltrandi assumptions because he just expressed it, namely that any initiative is likely to end up as a drop in the sea unless you first empty the prisons, I would like your opinion on this and then eventually on the privatization discourse that was introduced by the story of Parlanti.
Stefano Anastasia
I want to go back to this thing of the privatization actually because both the U.S. and Britain have faced over the past 20-30 years a growth of the prison population through a more or less significant privatization processes and these are processes that have worked for a certain period of time in that they have been able to build in times that for our government are unimaginable.
Oliviero Beha
In much shorter times you say...
Stefano Anastasia
Exact. Institutions to accommodate this large mass of prisoners increased after which we must also tell us that as the testimony of Doctor Parlanti told us and as a series of institutional facts of great importance that occurred just in California, just starting from California, testify that this system no longer holds because the detention is not a free market, it is not a business. It is not like there are people... the private investment does not arise from fact that there are customers who decide to spend part of their life in prison. You must go for there as an obligation, you go because the state sends you and the only customer of the private is the state. Then there is simply a transfer of money from the state to the private and then the result is that now also in the United States and in Britain privatization does not work anymore. The warehouse of which Parlanti spoke tells us that they are no longer in a condition through that system to build new facilities and the Supreme Court last year ordered California to reduce, has forced the state of California to reduce by one third its prison population because it is not in a position to build new facilities or to allow the construction of new facilities.
Oliviero Beha
Therefore, paradoxically, in a country that I remind you still still the death penalty, in certain states they have the death penalty, Parlanti was unfortunate because he happened to go to California while in some other state he would have got a better situation in terms of prison and the rest.
Stefano Beltrandi
Well the states of California among the states United has been the center of the growth of the prison overcrowding. We need to know that the United States is the country in the world where the prison population has grown more over the past 30 years and California is the state of the United States in which the prison population has grown more.
Oliviero Beha
Also because I assume that the news about China are scarce.
Stefano Anastasia
Well no one knows about it.
Oliviero Beha
So it is a presumption... so still to match television programs Beltrandi because you are valuable for the discourse on prisons but also as surveillance contact for RAI and so to match even among those who are now interested in prisons and who instead are watching what they eat at noon and three quarters I will make this comparison and you tell me if it is right. One thing is to rely on the private for the prisons food and another story if you give him the whole prison. I understand correctly?! This is the reasoning?! All three agree on this or are there different positions?! Because then we go on to another awesome theme so we do not miss anything. The Suicides. Because there is a large increase in the suicides of prisoners and a large increase in the suicides of prison guards. So I want to say in short, a situation absolutely frightening. Can we go on with this thing here?!  Well, that is Terrible in the sense of the theme. Thus we see the graphics on suicides in prison. In 2010 there were 66... in 2011 still 66... on June 11th 2012 there were 25. To know what we're talking about I sent Elio Mazzacane to interview a gentleman, a trade unionist prison guards of SAPPE Marche which was until the other day in hunger strike. Because then he felt ill and had to stop otherwise the interview would sadly be with him still on hunger strike, to highlight an untenable situation. His name is Aldo Di Giacomo and now we see the interview.
Interview by Elio Mazzacane to Aldo Di Giacomo, SAPPE Marche
Aldo Di Gioacomo
I decided to do a hunger strike to try to attract the attention of the world of politics on an issue that has become dramatic that is the world of prisons and I had to stop the hunger strike. We started a relay of solidarity and there are politicians, deputies, senators, heads of prisons, commanders of prisons, medical personnel that will be on hunger strike for a day of solidarity with my project. The prison in Ancona in my opinion reflects that which is the average Italian prison. In average it has 440 inmates against a planned capacity of 178 and an educator for every 110 prisoners. When there is a doctor, a dentist it is for a day a week. There are places where prisoners are housed in cells without bathroom and were forced to pee in bottles. Each prisoner when he has to eat he is forced to eat one at a time, the other two must be on the bed because otherwise there is no space. The European court of justice punishes Italy every year and says that a space for each inmate below nine meters constitute a serious violation. So much so that defines this situation torture. This situation, so complex, has led to what has happened in the last 20 days: 2 suicides - one suicide attempt. But the data that is really impressive is the increase in suicides, in recent years, of the prison service colleagues. We are at 100 suicides since 2000 and this number is really exaggerated. The interest in solving prisoners' problems does not mean anything but resolve most problems of all prison workers and prison officers in the first instance.
End Interview
Oliviero Beha
Seeing the bars at my shoulders I was unsure, I said "where are we?" Thus seeing what we just heard in the interview was completed the idea that pulling the ball toward the prison overcrowding is it all away and we could instead rebuilt everything. Beltrandi before spoke of justice reform. Now here we talk of the industry but actually is a debilitating depressing situation from all points of view. So I would like an opinion on what you heard because then, among other things about suicide I do not think there is much to say. We take note of an ongoing tragedy.
Melania Rizzoli
It is a tragedy which growing increasingly. In my book I devote a chapter of its own to suicides. I also describe the methods of suicide used by prisoners lead to despair. Because it is not easy to commit suicide in prison where they have removed all the tools to use to commit suicide and most are killed by hanging themself but making a rough rope with the sheets. And I have entered the cell of an inmate who committed suicide and also in other cells, the windows are low, they are not high so there is no vertical space to hang himself. And then the prisoner who has the determination to commit suicide to the point of folding his legs across his chest when he falls waiting to die. In short, this are dramatic situations. As well as another mode is choking with .... what is called in jargon prison cap ... with a plastic bag. You must keep it closed until there is loss of consciousness so if there is no gas, few cells have a gas stove to cook, they have to stay like that a few minutes as it happened with the suicide of Gabriele Cagliari.
Oliviero Beha
That is a discussion that would lead us to another area, however you made your point. Parlanti, unfortunately I use you as... witness or as a subject of comparison. Did you hear? There instead?
Carlo Parlanti
There it's really worst, because in addition to the problem of suicide there is a problem of unprecedented violence. The problem of systematic violence between inmates and between inmates and police. I'll briefly describe you the uniform of an American guard: military belt with, on right side, two canisters of pepper spray; between the two gas cylinders a stinging grenade. On the left a snapping baton with lead head micknamed "Bone Crusher", handcuffs, two sets of gloves, a pair of biker ones, you know what for, and others...
Oliviero Beha
Maybe we do not know what for.
Carlo Parlanti
They use them during violent attack; the other surgical ones because all searches are bodily. In practice every time they move you have to get naked and show them all of the orifices of the body including anus etc. And then a radio to communicate alarms and just if the radio does not work a garage-door style remote to be sure to communicate the alarm, since it happens so often to have one. In practice what we would consider riot gear.
Oliviero Beha
Listen, to be clear you really were clear. Unfortunately, when situations are experienced personally, on cannot avoid being clear. This is the point. If there was anything else to add to the suicide topic, otherwise...
Stefano Anastasia
I was impressed enough by, let's say, this parallelism between prisoners and prison service staff even to the choice of the hunger strike of the union man that we have heard which is a traditional instrument of protest by inmates in our prisons who are on hunger strike. Which is quite significant and just the idea of how...
Oliviero Beha
Not to mention the radicals on hunger strike.
Marco Beltrandi
Here I wanted to tell Italians who did not know that Marco Pannella has resumed his hunger strike, he has already done that a thirst strike then suspended and now has started it again. This initiative of the agent of custody on hunger strike is particularly important here because there is a problem that we have to say is particularly important here. Because there is a problem that we have to say and the trade unions, including unions of workers in prisons that is, we ask that these powerful trade unions to mobilize on this issue. Why don't they do enough?! Because up to now they are not doing enough, there isn't full awareness I think of the gravity of the situation. Workers have often find themselves living similar situations to those prisoners that life is denied to detainees also denied to the guards but I still say what I want to see is that this is also right to talk and compare all the situations of serious prison life we miss and love. But remember that we must seek an immediate solution not only for humanitarian reasons, well founded and important. We do not ask for amnesty for radicals' humanitarian issue, we ask to re-establish the law and freedoms of all those who are outside prison because as I said before the problem can be solved by the prison.
Oliviero Beha
Explain this connection because who ear you say "those are in jail, others are outside, why are the two related?"
Marco Beltrandi
Because that's the problem. The problem is that if the judicial system is flooded with about eleven million cases pending in civil and criminal, this means that as the entrepreneur who can not get paid and the simple worker whose rights are trampled... Because if justice does not work you can not go to court to claim your rights. Then, without a measure of deflation, first, that criminal also allows a reallocation of resources for example, on the whole machine of civil rights and freedoms that is blocked and therefore it is important to understand this is not just and I only told them the need to restore dignity and life to people who are workers and prisoners who are in prison, families and everything is a matter that affects the rights of citizens. Meanwhile, to say that the amnesty be able to reduce the backlog and then once the reform of justice, just because otherwise you cannot chatch up.
Oliviero Beha
It is no coincidence that the European court of justice is punishing us on prisons and on the working/not working on the operation of the Italian justice. We conclude because I still have at least 2 subjects to be discussed on the fly. The prison plan and then I go to my 2 guests for the foreign experience. So we say that there are over 3000 Italians in prisons outside the Italian borders.
Melania Rizzoli
I just wanted to add that in the justice reform it is also necessary and urgent to review the system of detention which is a preventive detention. It is a fault almost exclusively of Italy and adds to the problem of overcrowding. In the data we saw before...
Oliviero Beha
Listen, in the last 20 years, now okay Monti does some primary coverage in this economic situation, but Italians in the last twenty years when the country was always sick, most of the parliament for these issues...
Melania Rizzoli
There has been no real desire to address this problem. There have been many proposals many initiatives, but the real desire to solve the problem, to take the many bills that not only the radical friends have made, to put them on the calendar. So it's a problem... problem after problem that accumulated like in a funnel and now are exploding.
Oliviero Beha
So now I am sending some pictures. Thanks to the kind Graziella up with the director. So this is the plan directed at expanding the prison, source presidence of counsil... extension of existing structures, creation of new institutions, completion of work undertaken and restructuring existing institutions, completion of new institutions. Anastasia this would be the agenda. What's wrong? Which are the priorities? and do we continue the discussion about amnesty or not.
Stefano Anastasia
What doesn't work is that it is a significant investment for the scarce state resources, that if it were completed fast still does not give the necessary results. If this prisons plan could be completed tomorrow morning, spending those six hundred millions of euros that have been allocated we will have about 9,000 places more in detention and then we would continue to have more than 12,000-15,000 people who do not have their bed. From this point of view it seems a waste. Let's say we should rather work on reducing pre-trial detention, on the amendment of some laws that produce this particular rate of incarceration the law on drugs, on alternatives to detention. We should work on other things.
Oliviero Beha
The Bossi-Fini was one of those, for example.
Stefano Anastasia
The Bossi-Fini was one of those. Luckily the European Court of Justice helped a little bit there...
Oliviero Beha
The European Court of Justice has intervened on this, you explain it better!
Stefano Anastasia
The European Court of Justice ruled that...
Oliviero Beha
Explain what the Bossi-Fini is because I think that in the midst of this risotto one may forget.
Stefano Anastasia
It was the reform on the immigration text made in 2002 which among other things provided for the criminalization of those having been the recipient of an expulsion who had not departed on its own and this obviously has clogged because we are not in condition to send back illegal immigrants and at that point if they didn't leave of their own accord they become authors of a crime which is a paradox and the court of Justice obviously has thankfully freed us of this last year after 8 years under which this continued to produce unnecessary incarceration.
Oliviero Beha
Then it is true that Europe is made up of euro or not euro but it is also true that in some areas there is a feeling almost like saying that is common. At least according to what we just told. So at this point I would like to go abroad while remaining in Italy. I do it with my guests. I think it is interesting for many reasons: one, in terms of comparison with other countries as has just been telling us Parlanti about California prisons. Two because Parlanti is only one of the two quests already mentioned. But now we come to that lady Antignano and his son. It's scary there because if there is such ease in making things happen such as in Italy and abroad for more have you heard the news condemning the Court of Cassazione for the police on the case Aldrovandi. Well maybe some parents are more concerned about whether their child is abroad for example, for one thing. So more than three thousand Italian citizens are currently locked up in prisons outside the country. 79% detained in Europe - 15% in America and many of them are still awaiting trial. So, Mrs. Antignano, what happened to your son? And then you said you wanted to make an appeal to those who are still alive. Unfortunately for your son we can do little, unless the search for the truth but for those who are still alive... Tell me about your son.
Cira Antignano
My son left on February 18 and was arrested in the evening in the casino in Cannes. They arrested him and brought him to Grasse.
Oliviero Beha
What was he charged with?
Cira Antignano
For a cloned credit card.
Olivero Beha
That he did, let's say. And then?
Cira Antignano
And then he died on August 25, after 6 months.
Oliviero Beha
And what news did you get of your son in this period?!
Cira Antignano
The news that reached me from my son were saying that he felt sick and was not cared for. Back in May he was taken ill, having had a fever of 41 and while he was calling with a red button that is in short, is an alarm, nobody went to look at him because there was no party of this city, 3 days long, and the doctors were not available and then my son had to treat himself with some ice.
Oliviero Beha
And then things got much worse.
Cira Antignano
And things got worst because probably the guy had something that has slowly emerging. What happened is not possible for a boy of 36 years not suffering from heart, who was all right, how can he die so.
Oliviero Beha
Then the French judge has decided to formally indict for manslaughter, manslaughter is the equivalent to our unwilling homicide, the doctor for that prison in Grasse and two nurses. At what point is the situation?
Cira Antignano
Eh, there are now these investigations, I don't know how to say.
Oliveiro Beha
On top ef everything, the organs of your son were...
Cira Antignano
Are still there, yes.
Oliviero Beha
For investigations?
Cira Antignano
Because they say they must do the trial and they want because the defendants, the lawyers of the suspects want the opportunity to do more analysis.
Oliviero Beha
Later I'll be back with you Mrs.. Beltrandi you told me you were aware of this story. Isn't it?
Marco Beltrandi
Yes sure...
Oliviero Beha
What can we do?
Marco Beltrandi
It is a very serious matter. The most we can do, that is not so much...
Oliviero Beha
I remind you, cloned credit card, boy who died at age 36.
Marco Beltrandi
It is to try and make sure to have justice. To clarify the causes that led to this death. I must say that there were also cases in Italy of inmates who entered in prison young, I remember one in particular with a charge for cultivation of hashish or something, and after a few days even died. Being the prison a closed environment is clearly much more difficult to figure out what are the causes of deaths. What really happened. These are very serious questions as Italy and we must of course expect that everything be done to get to identify the responsibility. That I feel certain that there are some...
Oliviero Beha
The boy felt good, right?! in the sense that what happened next was not expected in light of previous illness or previous state of health. You told me Mrs. you wanted to make an appeal.
Cira Antignano
I wanted to make an appeal for a prisoner suffering from Viterbo... the hips... he has pain and walks with crutches. David Casella is called and I have been fighting for two years for this man.
Oliviero Beha
How did you meet him?
Cira Antignano
I met him because he sent condolences to the house, that is, at that moment I was pleased about it.
Oliviero Beha
After the death of your son?
Cira Antignano
After the death of my son, yes. And I have maintained this friendship and I also went to visit him in prison so I could see with my own eyes how this man was walking.
Oliviero Beha
And treatment is all he needs?!
Cira Antignano
He needs to be operated, however, to be led to Civitavecchia, where he has family that may be near to him. It's two years that I'm fighting to get him from Viterbo to Civitavecchia and we can't.
Oliviero Beha
Then none of the three present in the study had heard of this thing, I guess. What can you do now having heard from Mrs. What can you do?!
Melania Rizzoli
We can make an investigation. I am in the Committee of Inquiry into Health and then we can also do an inspection. Even if I, beeinga doctor, I went to visit medical clinics looking for particular diseases of prisoners incompatible with the prison regime and I could not even once get a positive result for serious diseases which were incompatible with prison. Yes it is a shameful thing, however...
Oliviero Beha
Now let's put it like this: I do my job giving voice and news and you do your seeing what you can do. Anastasia is from the field so I want to say is a very clear thing, there is not much to discuss. If things are like Mrs. has described them for this inmate in Viterbo let's see what we can do. Parlanti, before leaving because I want to finish the transmission showing again at least the images from the first piece from Rita Di Francesco in prison,  it is true that later talking with Parlanti it turned out that in comparison that is a paradise, but in fact we know that things are not exactly like that. In the sense that that is a hell but this is another hell. Parlanti, while we prepare these images, what is the situation with you? You served your sentence and returned to Italy, what is your situation at the judicial level? what margins do you have? Can you do anything there? Because the way you have been found guilty... maybe the curiosity will remain in those who where following and did not know about your story and maybe says "well the evidence were so so, but maybe we are talking with a person who is guilty, who has just served in a bad place". But maybe things are not like that.
Carlo Parlanti
They are not like that absolutely. Many books have already been published stating that fraudulent certification was produced, both medical and even false photographs, and recently it was discovered that some of these falsification have been committed also in Italy. Next week I...
Oliviero Beha
Why, but also in Italy? How would it be?!
Carlo Parlanti
I will present next week here in Italy criminal charges and obviously after that we'll start the other complaints both in Europe and with the California Attorney General.
Oliviero Beha
If you can do it, you'll tell me in a second, explain us what happened.
Carlo Parlanti
What happened is very simple. The United States believed to the delirious allegations of a jealous woman. Two years later I was arrested are was extradited at all costs and then when they realized that the medical reports were false, that there where even doctors who affirmed that the woman had bruising on her face at a later date than the photos taken by the police which portrayed a woman without bruises, then at that point they tried to solve everything and offered a plea bargain to send me home and close the story; making sure that there was no possibility of legal repercussions.
Oliviero Beha
Parlanti, do you know what I was thinking while you talked?! No wonder that America series go so strong in the European television market and also in the Italian. You practically just told us an episode, because it is a monstrous thing. Except that in TV there are the good ones, in your case there are none.
Carlo Parlanti
No don't beleive them. No, no, what they sell you on television in series like CSI is all completely false. Investigations are not made in the U.S. I was accused of having kidnapped, beaten and raped a woman. They took photographs of the woman who did not have any bruise and they told her "please, go find yourself a doctor". This woman has not even done a gynecological exam. They went to search my apartment and found everything in perfect order; there are photos of my apartment completely in order. They did not seize anything, they didn't take the mattress, they did not take the computer, they have not done any kind of investigation.
Oliviero Beha
I remind you that Carlo Parlanti has paid completely and did not bargain nothing which would have allowed him to return home safely but with this ignominy on the head. He doesn't feel shame, but he has done many years in prison. I believe that he deserves for sure the Italian justice and the international one.
Beltrandi thanks you. Thanks to Anastasia, thanks Melania Rizzoli.
Beltrandi, even this type of pressure on the RAI like what Napolitano said before... but is it possible that nobody listen to Napolitano, politics for RAI because everything else works as a charm for such a thing as a true public service...
Marco Beltrandi
It would take also some prime time.
Oliviero Beha
Well, I am used to mornings and I might have a psychological disturbance on mondays at nine. Brontolo will talk about Monday's earthquake. What does it mean "Monday's earthquake"? It means what happens after the earthquakes in Emilia and l'Aquila...
To Monday.

Oliviero Beha
Melania Rizzoli

Brontolo (Beha)

Carlo Parlanti at Brontolo (Beha)

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